Talk of bag limits and minimum size restrictions for three popular reef fish species is building on the mistrust between segments of the fishing community and scientists and conservationists concerned about the impacts of fishing on Hawai'i's reefs.

No rules have been drafted yet by the state Department of Land and Natural Resources, but Chairwoman Laura H. Thielen said it's likely new regulations will go forward for parrotfish (uhu), goatfish (weke) and jacks (ulua and papio) following additional public meetings.

The DLNR said the latest restrictions are being considered because the targeted fish may be at risk for overharvesting. Limu-grazing parrotfish are especially vital to healthy coral reefs because of their critical role in controlling algae growth.

"I think there is some agreement that there does need to be some bag limits," Thielen said. Different rules could be crafted for different locations, and larger bag limits for commercial fishers are being discussed, she said.

A majority of recreational fishers testifying at the meetings have been in favor of stricter measures, but many commercial and subsistence fishers oppose any additional rules that might threaten their livelihood or traditional activities.

Lifelong fisherman Carl Jellings Sr., of Nanakuli, said a daily bag limit for recreational fishers may be reasonable, but for commercial fishers, it would be disastrous.

"Certain species could use some help, but not the kind they are talking about. Two fish per person would put a lot of nearshore guys out of business. They can't survive," said Jellings, 53, who runs his 30-foot fishing boat out of the Wai'anae Small Boat Harbor.

"We cannot keep catching as much as we want. Those days are pau already. But they've got to come up with something more reasonable so we could stay in business and the markets that sell fish could stay in business and we have conservation management."

SKETCHY DATA

No one knows how much fish is being removed from Hawai'i's reefs. There are 3,200 licensed commercial fishers in Hawai'i, and only two-thirds file required monthly catch reports, according to the DLNR.

"There's no real incentive for people to report accurately what they are catching, and a large proportion of the catch is noncommercial," said Bill Walsh, an aquatic biologist with the DLNR's Division of Aquatic Resources, or DAR, who works on the Kona Coast. "There are myriad different ways people are fishing off different locations and it's almost impossible to figure out what's being taken out of the water."

In 2008, commercial fishers reported catching 268,225 pounds of "reef fish," the largest haul in five years, according to data from the Western Pacific Fisheries Information System and DAR. That figure represents less than 1 percent of total commercial fish landings last year.

The recreational and subsistence catch is believed to be far greater than the commercial harvest, but Hawai'i does not have a recreational marine fishing license, and there are no reporting requirements.

The Hawaii Marine Recreational Fishing Survey was started in 2001 by NOAA Fisheries and DAR to get a better handle on the catch using data collected from fishers at various sites around the state and from telephone interviews.

The 2008 survey shows a little more than 3 million fish totaling nearly 2 million pounds harvested in state waters extending out to three miles.

Because the reporting parameters differ, the commercial and recreational catches cannot be readily compared. Karl Brookins, DAR's commercial fisheries manager, also noted that catch data fluctuate based on the number of people fishing and hours spent on the water — two factors that increase during tough economic times — and not necessarily on changes in fish stocks.

Tony Costa, who represents a group called Hawaii Nearshore Fishermen, cautioned that catch numbers are incomplete and shouldn't be used as the basis for fisheries management.

"There are all kinds of fish out there in the resource. You just don't hear about it," he said. "I'm not saying there's no fishing pressure, but there is a sustainable level you can have. Nobody would be fishing if they weren't catching, and they are catching a lot."

TOO MANY ANGLERS

Recent studies indicate fishing pressure is playing a far greater role in the decline of Hawaiian nearshore fisheries than previously thought.

A 2008 study by NOAA Biogeography Branch and The Oceanic Institute in Waimanalo found that 75 percent of fish species in the main Hawaiian Islands are in "critical" or "depleted" condition. The species in most trouble include the largest and longest-lived, such as sharks, jacks and parrotfish.

"There are still a lot of people who don't think overfishing is an issue. It's pretty obvious when you compare O'ahu to places like Kaho'olawe and the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands that big pieces of the system are missing," said lead researcher Alan Friedlander, a fisheries ecologist at the University of Hawai'i's Cooperative Fishery Research Unit.

A separate study released last year suggested that fishing may have a bigger impact on nearshore fish populations than coastal sedimentation, pollution and other human impacts.

Scientists found that in areas suffering from habitat loss and environmental degradation caused by heavy urbanization, less popular species such as hawkfish, butterflyfish and smaller triggerfish and surgeonfish were more numerous than uhu, ulua, red weke and other species coveted by fishers.

The study also noted that in highly populated areas where fishing access is difficult, such as on the Big Island's Hamakua Coast and parts of Northeast Maui where there are high shoreline cliffs, the most sought-after fish species were not as depleted.

The lead author of the study, Ivor Williams of UH's Cooperative Fishery Research Unit, said although other factors are clearly involved, the study "strongly indicates that fishing is the main driver of reef fish declines in most parts of the state."

"If the chief cause of fish declines was habitat loss or environmental degradation related to development and pollution, then we would have seen fish declines across the board," he said. "Instead, fish declines along human population trends were only really apparent for species preferred by fishers."

Researchers said they are especially concerned about steep declines in uhu.

"We found that herbivores are enormously depleted. The biomass on O'ahu reefs is only about 3 percent of that in remote parts of the state. Parrotfishes are massively impacted by fishing," Williams said.

"Some fishermen say they're still out there if you know where to look. But you shouldn't have to look. This fish should be very abundant in shallow water."

Scientists involved in both studies called for more and larger marine protected areas, better enforcement of fishing regulations, and stronger rules to protect critical species from harvest before they reach reproductive maturity and to safeguard larger and older individuals with the greatest reproductive output.

UNFAIR, FISHERS SAY

Jellings and Costa are skeptical of scientific claims that fisheries are in decline. They believe fishers have become easy scapegoats for problems in the nearshore environment and say invasive algae, runoff, diversion of stream water from ocean outlets, and coastal development have done far more damage to reefs.

"We've been singing that song for 25 years, but you can't stop the golf courses, you can't stop development. But you can stop a few fishermen," Costa said. "There are a lot of things that are affecting the health of the reefs and its ecosystems and scientists are still trying to figure it all out."

Retired commercial fisherman Isaac Harp, 51, of Waimea on the Big Island, agrees that fishers have been taking an unfair share of the blame but thinks it's time for more severe restrictions on recreational and commercial fishing.

Harp said he quit deep-sea fishing about four years ago because he "felt guilty" about declining bottomfish stocks, and now he shorefishes only for the dinner table. He doesn't see a workable balance between fishing interests and protection of Hawai'i's nearshore resources.

"Because of the population size, I don't think that's really a possible achievement," said Harp, who has served on a number of fishing policy task forces. "There are a lot more people who desire the same limited resources. We need to have bag limits so there's equal distribution among users.

"And I don't think there should be recreational fishing. Nobody should be fishing for fun. It should be for home consumption."

Harp also would ban commercial fishing within 1 1/2 miles of shore and encourage community management of local marine resources.

"We need some extreme measures taken in order to preserve what we have. It's not a bottomless pit we can harvest forever," he said. "Younger people don't realize how much fish there used to be 30 years ago, and they think what they are catching now is normal."

KAPU SYSTEM

In ancient times, Hawaiians practiced conservation through a strictly enforced kapu that prevented fishing during spawning season, alternated fishing times at inshore spots and placed limu off-limits at certain times of the year to preserve it as food for reef fish.

"Ancient Hawaiians had a sophisticated form of fisheries management. The resource was perceived to be finite," Walsh said. "After Western contact, the whole system broke down and we really haven't had a system. We've had anarchy and unregulation for 100-plus years. We've gone from having a very sophisticated system of management to one where we're really far behind most places in the world."

Costa said most fishers are open to some regulations "if done correctly."

"Most fishermen are in favor of seasonal closures because that's the way the ancient Hawaiians did it," he said. "But you can't arbitrarily say, 'I think it's a good idea to have a two-fish bag limit.' "

Costa traced some of the mistrust between fishers and regulators to the debate over lay gillnet rules that began in 1998 with the Hawai'i Gillnet Task Force, of which Costa, Harp and other fishers were members along with fishery biologists, enforcement personnel and a reef conservationist.

GILLNETS RESTRICTED

At its final meeting in 1999, the panel recommended continued use of lay gillnets with restrictions. Nearly a decade passed before any regulations were put into effect, and Costa said that in the interim, the issue was hijacked by environmental groups pushing for a statewide ban that went well beyond what the task force had proposed.

The final regulations established in 2007 include some of the task force's recommendations but also prohibit lay gillnet use in Maui waters and at three spots off O'ahu and net use at night.

"They made these rules up to appear like there's still some lay gillnetting allowed, but you can't go at night, and most lay netting happens at night," Costa said.

Commercial fishers also complain that fishing regulations are concocted without adequate scientific justification and ignore the expertise of fishers most familiar with local resources.

"Fishermen are real important to what's really happening in the ecosystem. They are really the ones qualified to tell you what's going on because they're there every day and they virtually live there. They have a feel for the resource. No scientist has ever come close to what fishermen can tell you," Costa said.

Costa's group supported a measure during the 2009 Legislature that would have required the DLNR to gather data justifying new regulations on the taking of popular reef fish. The agency also would have been required to develop a program to evaluate the effects of runoff, sedimentation, pollution and invasive species on nearshore ecosystems.

Conservationists saw the action as an attempt to derail further fishing regulation by requiring time-consuming studies.

Friedlander said there's already plenty of evidence pointing to a decline in nearshore marine life.

"We can always have more and better science. We've got a reasonable amount of information with not just science backing it up but anecdotally. If you talk to a lot of kupuna and people who have been around the water a lot, they're saying the fishes aren't as big, they're not as numerous and key species are just not around," he said.

"We have to adopt 'the precautionary principle.' If there's potential for degradation, you should be prudent. It's a lot easier to conserve stuff than to fix it after you've broken it."

'NOT SUSTAINABLE'

Maui spearfisherman Darrell Tanaka is part of a growing movement among recreational fishers to support additional regulation.

"We don't have as much fish as we used to, and we need more regulations and enforcement to manage what we have left. You can't take as much as you like. It's not sustainable," he said.

"Most of the recreational fishing community wants more regulations. It's a few individuals who are anti-government and the commercial guys who don't like it."

Thielen acknowledged strained relations between her agency and certain fishing interests, and said she is striving to improve the dialogue.

"We have to approach them in a manner in which they do not feel they are exclusively being targeted as responsible for the decline in fisheries and the only party that's taking the burden of protecting the fisheries," said Thielen, who took over the DLNR in 2007.

She said different divisions within the DLNR are working on different issues affecting coral reefs, such as stream restoration and removal of deer from watershed areas.

"We don't explain to fishermen the overall efforts and what's the piece we're asking them to work with us on," Thielen said.

"Not everyone's going to like us, but if we work on explaining the bigger picture, I'm cautiously optimistic that enough of the fishers are going to acknowledge that at least in the main Hawaiian Islands, we cannot be fishing like it was in 1950, or 1850."

LOW INVESTMENT

One thing scientific, fishing and conservation interests agree on is that Hawai'i needs to invest more in its natural resources. The DLNR's budget represents less than 1 percent of state spending, even though Hawai'i's coral reefs have an estimated economic value of $10 billion.

"These are things a lot of people take for granted, and they're declining," Friedlander said. "DLNR is not well-funded. The state of Hawai'i should have one of the best aquatic departments in the country, and with so many endemic species here, the state has a responsibility to manage our resources."

Costa agrees the DLNR "is way undergunned."

He also proposed removing oversight of fisheries management from the overtasked Board of Land and Natural Resource and creating a separate, specialized panel to work with the Division of Aquatic Resources to develop policy.