The questions ranged from improving public education to how best to use the state’s surplus. The Advertiser’s Community Editorial Board, along with the newspaper’s Editorial Board, recently met with two key state legislators — Rep. Calvin Say, speaker of the House, and House Minority Leader Lynn Finnegan — to discuss these and other issues. Here are excerpts:

Edward Enos: Calvin, You've been a political power force in the Islands for a long time — you personally as well as your party. Reflecting back, all your years in office, looking around the state today and seeing some of the issues — sewage system, potholes everywhere, a lot of infrastructure issues. In a state where for 40 years we've had a Democratic governor, a Democratic Legislature, you guys have pretty much been in control. So even with a Republican governor today, you still pretty much have the reins of control. So how do you respond to the public when they say, "Why are our highways in such poor shape? Why do we have sewage issues? Why do we have all these problems that are government's very basic, fundamental process?"

Rep. Calvin Say: I think, Ed, in reflecting on the past 29 years for me being in the state House and with the Democratic control of the Legislature and 40 years of the executive, it's more of a reflection that politics has basically come to be a short-term view rather than a long-term view. If it wasn't for Gov. Ariyoshi, who developed the state plan in trying to address all those particular issues, we would not have a plan in place at all today.

I can say really honestly and candidly that the problem we have with our infrastructure today is because of politics. We may fund it but it may not be released.

For the sewage and the sewer lines, it is a county issue, where very honestly and candidly, the former mayor did transfer a lot of monies from the special fund to the general fund. The public should have been made aware (of this) by their respective council people. Today, we are trying our best to support the counties, and this year we did support the counties by giving O'ahu $4 million to repair their roads and the other three counties $2 million, and that came out of the Highway Fund, of which we have a surplus. (Gov. Lingle this week announced she does not have the legal authority to release the money).

I cringe right now about the other infrastructures that are happening statewide. I cringe about the Department of Transportation. You look at our harbor, it's so congested. We had the 20/20 master plan, but the resources were not there.

The executive branch did not have the courage, administratively, to implement increases in wharfage fees. The past administration and this administration has passed it on to the Legislature to enact legislation to increase wharfage fees, which can be done administratively.

Another big issue for me today is what's happening at our airports. Nobody talks about the special fund in regards to airports. The number of national airlines that are going through bankruptcy — our two airlines as well. Nobody's investigating the fact that once you file for bankruptcy, you don't have to pay as you go.

Maybe that's why our Honolulu International Airport is deteriorating. You can see leaks in the roofs, the poor Wiki Wiki system, the poor maintenance of our toilets, all of this.

And so, what have the Democrats done? I'm very proud to report to all of you, it was quality of life. (For instance,) today, we have the best pension and health fund system (for public workers) in the country. ....

Julia K. Matsui-Estrella: Lynn, In your analysis, what do you think are the root causes of homelessness? And what do you plan to do in this legislative session to address some of those root causes?

Rep. Lynn Finnegan: Homelessness is, of course, an issue that has ballooned recently, especially with the housing crisis. There's many things you have to address when it comes to homelessness, including drug abuse, as well as dual diagnosis, as well as mental illness ... So I see a multi-pronged effect or opportunity as well as different agencies trying to assist in that area.

I just went to the faith-based initiatives and community initiative conference ... that had a project over in Uluwehi in Wai'anae where people had come together and are looking at providing additional housing for homeless out in Wai'anae area. And I'd like to see and continue to support cooperating organizations, public and private, coming together to address issues like this.

I'm not saying it's only the communities that are going to be doing this, but it has to really be a partnership. It can't come from the government, per se, but (from) people willing to come in and partner.

Matsui-Estrella: But I know a lot of people who are homeless and not into drugs. What do you do about those people? And the homeless shelters we work with have 6-month waiting lists.

Finnegan: Right. There are a lot of different ways we need to help, but we need to support those community activities that will allow people to either come out of homelessness or avoid homelessness. So I understand that we have needs on all different levels and although homelessness is not my specialty, I do understand that we will have to address it from all these different levels.

Say: Homeless shelters should be a permitted use in all residential areas, but the community is not behind it. If you have the political will of fighting the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard), it's something the community has to consider. Because it is a community problem.

John Mussack: What kinds of accommodations and to what extent do legislators have to make with the groups of people who are long established in the government departments? Just give us a general picture of what legislators have to face, politically, in accommodating themselves with the people who are running the government.

Say: John's point is well taken, but I look at it from a different point of view: They're just workers in the state system who should have the respect as far as being given the fair opportunity at public hearings. ... It's just one group out of many that the Legislature faces at the hearings that we conduct.

To say that the unions dictate state government is incorrect. It's more going back to the quality of life. If the average salary of a state employee is $34,000, how can that person make it in society today? And if the average salary of a school teacher is up to $40K, what kind of opportunities will that individual, young lady, young man, have in acquiring a home? I don't believe they dictate public policy per se as far as the overall scheme of things. But overall, I look at state, city employees as regular everyday employees.

Barbara Ng: To both: As you know, you haven't done much with our tax code for the state for quite a number of years, and our state deduction and exemption are very low, relative to other places, especially the federal government. This question is from my young daughter. She's in her early 20s and chose not to attend college, and every time she fills out her tax form for the state, she's disappointed to find out she doesn't necessarily owe you money but she doesn't get her money back the way she gets it back from the federal government because the exemptions and the deductions are so low. She also recently heard that you might enact the Earned Income Credit for the state. So what are you folks going to do? Are you going to take a look at the tax code this year and hopefully increase the standard deduction, the exemptions for the state?

Say: We will be looking at the tax code, but not to the degree that you may be talking about. We have a tax review commission that will be coming out with their recommendations by the end of the year. And at that point, we'll see what we can do to fit the pieces of the puzzle as far as trying to meet the unmet needs first, then trying to address tax cuts.

You should also be aware that when I was chair of Finance, we had a hearing for about six hours on the repeal of general excise tax exemptions. There's close to 37 entities out there today that are exempt from the GET that, if we were to repeal that, we'd probably generate close to three quarters of a billion dollars today.

Ng: Why are they still there ...?

Say: Everybody opposed it.

Ng: Why are they, in particular, exempt?

Say: Throughout the years, the Legislature, and I don't know why, had granted these exemptions to these different groups. A case in point is our hospitals. They're exempt from the 4 percent (excise tax), the mutual benefits societies, the HMOs, the churches — they're all exempt from the 4 percent.

When I had the bill introduced, maybe nine or 10 years ago, everybody was opposed because they were protecting their turf. The objective for me as chair of Finance, which the press did not highlight, was the fact that I wanted to lower the 4 percent to 2 percent, spread it across the board. Nobody has the political will and courage today to repeal any exemptions that may affect a particular special interest.

Let's be honest with ourselves. And that's why maybe the general public or the consumer becomes a loser. But we did try to address it in the Cayetano administration, where we gave everybody a big cut which cost the state close to $980 million in lost tax revenues. We adjusted the schedules and rates, and nobody appreciated what we did because it was a phase-in.

Finnegan: I would say, we have been supportive of a standard deduction change. And I would say realistically in the minority party we'd be looking to the majority to see what would come to the table at the next session. I at least support the governor's standard deduction.

Ng: To increase it?

Finnegan: Correct.

Iris Fukui: On caring for our growing population of elderly, both of you have spoken about community issues needing grassroots support; if everybody, the public, understands it, it's easier for you people to buy it or push it. One thing on people's minds is to give tax credits to caregivers. What chance is there for something like that? And what do you think we have to do to make you understand, Rep. Finnegan, that we should support some kind of long term care insurance for the public? I'm an experienced caregiver. I took care of a totally disabled husband for 10 years. So I know that the key to solving this problem is to have friends and family take care of elderly. So what kind of info do you need to convince you?

Finnegan: If you're talking about tax credits for caregivers, there's no one single fix to the issue. If you have a long term care insurance, do you have enough trained caregivers? So it's also another problem where there isn't just one answer.

Fukui: Ten years ago, I had a 10-minute lesson and could carry my husband; I could give the medicine to my husband. We're going to be faced with this problem of the elderly, we all know that. So we have to address it and get everybody to help.

Say: Well, for me, Iris, if you don't politicize the issue, I'll be open to some form of long term care. When you politicize the issue, that's when it gets into trouble. You know, I'm going through that with my parents, and my mother-in-law. I really don't have the answer today. On the floor of the House, you get members saying it's a national problem, let the national government address it. They're not going to address it. And it's scary.

So, your thoughts about tax credits for caregivers, I can't say yes or no at this point in time. Because I would have to make a decision about what is the financial impact of this tax credit, and is this caregiver licensed, and all of this.

So, I don't have the answer, but I'm just like you, very much concerned, and if the issues were not politicized, I think something would have been done.

Enos: How much longer do the both of you see Hawai'i just having unrestricted growth? I mean, there's a point where you can't build any more hotels in Waikiki. You cannot build any more second cities on O'ahu. At what point do you see that the public and the Legislature start controlling how much more growth we want? How much more can we sustain? Do you think it's wise to continue allowing major hotel chains to keep building bigger hotels, in the same area of Waikökö that the Hilton has just done, and that the Outrigger is currently doing? Do you think that's a wise choice today?

Say: Ed, in a very short response, I would say yes, but it's not hotels. It's condominiums and time-shares.

Enos: Good point. So whether it's a hotel, time-share, whatever. Do you think it's wise, given the infrastructure problems, to just keep allowing growth, of any type, in Waikökö proper?

Say: And my answer would be yes, and the reason why is, you have to improve the plant. You have to improve the plant, which is Waikiki. It is the gateway to Hawai'i.

The aura of Waikiki is still symbolic as the gateway to Hawai'i and it's that diamond-in-the-rough. It has a symbolism, right — Waikökö? People want to come and visit Waikökö. And I'm very happy about the improvements that have occurred. But, it's come at the expense of other communities. That's the trade-off the county and the state has to make.

Finnegan: That's a pretty deep question that I, at this point in time can't even visualize. How do you stop it? You know, we're talking about our visitor capacity and we're at full capacity right now. We're talking about how we're even encouraging even more people to come out so that we can support our labor force, and not have homelessness and stuff like that. So, it's a difficult thing to come down to a point and answer this as a "yes" or "no" question.

Enos: Well, politicians I know are afraid to say ... it leads to consequences.

Finnegan: One of the things it actually comes down to is, do we control our population? Do we become like China?

Say: Ed, I think development will slow down in the next decade, which is really scary. And the biggest joker of it all is we haven't talked about energy.

Matsui-Estrella: I'm concerned about the growth of the military. Because they're taking more and more land, they're bringing in the Stryker brigade, all these thousands of new soldiers coming in, and housing for the military. And so I'm really concerned about the increased militarization of Hawai'i as a state. Where do you stand on it?

Say: I support the military very much. They have contributed tremendously to the growth of the state of Hawai'i, and in the areas of high tech, life sciences, biosciences, and they'll continue to do that. Today, I think we really do need the military, as far as what is happening in Southeast Asia, and the Pacific Rim.

Matsui-Estrella: But the Democratic Party voted against the Stryker brigade.

Say: But, you know, our congressional delegation supported it and they looked at the greater good of the community as a whole. So that would be my position, I do support the military here in the state of Hawai'i.

Julia: Even though it's taking up valuable land?

Say: It's not taking up all of the valuable land.

Finnegan: I have a very similar opinion as the speaker. I do support the military in Hawai'i. In regards to how much it is taking over valuable land, I can't comment on that.

Mussack: Regarding the Department of Education: Over the years, media coverage seems to generate the impression that lack of funds is the only significant roadblock to success for our public schools. Does each of you really believe that lack of funds is the only significant obstacle, and if not, what other major obstacle to success for our public schools would you identify?

Say: John, It's just not only money but in our public school system, which I'm very proud of, we take all comers. From the gifted and talented on down to the Felix child. And that's where public education has become the safety net for the community as a whole.

Finnegan: John, I am a strong advocate for public education. I do want to say that this is such a long answer for me. In short, I will say that money is not the issue, I would even say the biggest issue, at the school level for some of the people that I speak to is the ability to have control and have the flexibility so that they can be accountable. That's a real huge issue, because if you allow that to happen, there's an upset in the way we see our public education run.

I'm seeing principals and teachers wanting to retire and leave their jobs because of the constraints and the inability to do what they need to do to educate all of the different kinds of kids that come into the classroom.

I voted against Act 51 (The Democratic Majority's school "reform" package). However, when it was passed, I said that I would support it because there is a way that I think we can achieve reform here. But all of these other things need to come into play before we can get to that flexibility and control at the local level. And it's not.

I would say that at this point in time, it's very stressful on the teachers and principals and we need to have that kind of push to get to that control and flexibility of money into our schools.

Ng: What are the odds that Hawai'i could become a demonstration project state for having single-payer health care system? Or having seamless healthcare? A pool of healthcare? I think it's really a sick and sad situation when you find that even though our employers are supposed to provide health care, even the state government as an employer has found a way to wiggle out of it. So I would like to see Hawai'i develop a demonstration project to show that single-payer healthcare for the whole population could actually exist.

Say: There is a task force (the Universal Healthcare Task Force of the House and Senate) that's working on this right now — as a single-pay type of operation. And we're looking at consolidating all the different health insurance programs under one umbrella. Today, you and I gotta pay workers comp, TDI, no-fault insurance for your automobile, pre-paid health, etc. That's all gonna be consolidated under one umbrella to cover everyone and see how far we can go. But it is just in the formative stages.

Enos: As an employer, that sounds good if you can cut the red tape. I think employers like me will support you. But if it costs me more money, forget it. Business can only sustain so much, before they're not a business anymore.

Finnegan: Well, I gotta tell you right now, I'm in that task force. And it WILL cost more money. However, the reason why you'll want to do this, is because you want to be able to spread the cost amongst people who can pay it. The only way you can do it is to add on more costs for the people who can pay it.

Enos: But there are more and more people receiving benefits and fewer and fewer working people paying into those programs. At some point, you have to accept the fact that the numbers just go further and further apart and you will never be able to have a system that totally takes care of you.

Finnegan: And this is the whole idea about the long-term-care insurance, and it's the whole issue with single-payer as well. So how far do you put the pressure on business and people who can make these additional payments, where you put so much tax pressure on — or whatever it is — on a person in their job that they can't upkeep and they become homeless?

And then another situation about having single payer here. You have single payer here where you go into a hospital, you get care; you go into a doctor's office, you get care, you bill it to the state. ... wouldn't this be the greatest state to come to? It's not only paradise but you get your health insurance paid for. So there are a lot of issues.

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea; it has a great purpose. It's just that, how realistic is it to put that kind of pressure on our working society?

Fukui: What are your priorities for the surplus?

Say: There are a lot of unmet needs out there, and before we even consider looking at some of these tax cuts or standard deductions, or income tax credits or middle class cuts, let's go out there and see what the needs are. The Finance committee and the Ways and Means committee during the past 6 weeks went to the neighbor islands. There are so many needs out there.

But be careful also — these are just "projections" by the Council on Revenues. Come January, this growth that may be stated this month or last month may not be that projection or growth. And then you've gotta cut back because you have to pass a balanced budget.

Finnegan: I've been on the Health and Human Services committee and Education and Higher Ed, and I've kind of been consumed in those areas. So, of course my priorities are going to be more along those lines. However, we have to go forward lightly and make sure we take a look at everything. And even with a large surplus, we're not gonna be able to fund everything, and we have to make sure there's accountability in spending.

I would say in regards to health and human services, in regards to drug treatment, you have to make sure that these things we're putting money into are effective.

I really truly believe that there needs to be some kind of indication that yes, we are talking about the average taxpayer who foots a lot of the government bills; we need to have some relief there as well. I would say standard deduction is probably the most logical way it would get back into the pockets of those who truly need some kind of relief.

And then I would go on to say, I would like to see more secure treatment stuff that has to do with prison system; education as long as we have accountability.

Jeanne Mariani-Belding: Let's ask our community board members, what would you like to see done with the surplus, would you want it back?

Enos: I don't want my money back. You've taken it; keep it, use it wisely. But don't just throw it at the DOE and say "here."

Matsui-Estrella: No, I don't want my money back. I want it to be focused on affordable housing for people who make incomes of $25,000 and less.

Mussack: I agree, I think it should be spent on people who need it most.

Ng: I want you to fix the infrastructure of the schools, and any other public buildings that need it that are used on a regular basis. If you're not gonna use the buildings anymore, get rid of them, tear them down.

Fukui: I don't want it back either. In the past, there used to be big symposiums, free for the public to come. How can we get the public before you? Can you fund something like that?